Jake: The Future of City-Building, Longevity, and Crypto - Anonymity and Media Optimism

Jake, an anonymous writer, joins us to discuss the future of crypto, longevity, and city-building. We also discuss the importance of media optimism and why Jake keeps his identity private.

Jake
March 16, 2021
59
 MIN

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Notes

In 2019, Jake quit his job as an investment banking analyst and has been writing online ever since. Recently, he started a podcast where he interviews thought leaders and change-makers in crypto, longevity, and city-building.

We talk about the exciting future of those topics, and what Jake has learned from his conversations with experts like Vitalik Buterin, Balaji Srinivasan, Pomp, Patri Friedman, and Elad Gil.

Links:

Blog of Jake: https://blogofjake.com

Pod of Jake: https://podofjake.com

Pod of Jake with Balaji: https://podofjake.com/2020/12/23/32-balaji-srinivasan/

Twitter of Jake: https://twitter.com/blogofjake

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If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend!

If you want to reach out to us, please do so on Twitter: https://twitter.com/LouisKyleShow

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Episode Transcript

Note: This transcript was generated by AI and was only minimally edited by our team. We apologize in advance for any errors.

Jake

I think that there's a reasonable probability that we have technologies that come out. And I don't know if it's in the next decade or two decades, three decades, et cetera, but guys like you and I are, are fairly young where even if something comes out in the next five decades, call it that meaningfully can rejuvenate people and sort of rewind the biological clock in a sense that could be super impactful on the sort of life expectancy that we could expect, not just life expectancy, but extending actual health spans. Hello and welcome to the Lewis and Kyle show and interview podcast where Louis and I interview entrepreneurs, investors, and people living unconventional lives over the last year, we've interviewed 59 people. All of which have been really, really incredible conversations where Louis and I have learned so much, and today is no different. We have Jake on and I'll let Louis tell you a little bit more about him.Louis Shulman

Jake is an anonymous content creator. That's what I would just call him Jake. Cause that's his full online brand. He has a blog called a blog of Jake with the appropriately obscure logo of a blue circle, which is kind of becoming a trademark on the internet for the followers of Jake. He also has a great podcast called unsurprisingly part of Jake, where he interviews people who are forging the fields he writes about on his blog. The topics Jake has been super interested in talking about, and that we discussed in this conversation range all around the idea of the future of humanity and just different future technologies. So that could be the future of aging. The future of space travel the future of real estate in cities and the future of finance. So cryptocurrency NFTs, and a lot of these other topics, we do also discuss a little bit about why he's an anonymous creator towards the end, super interesting conversation. A lot about just generating some ideas as well as discussing some of the knowledge he has about these topics. I know you'll enjoy this conversation with Jake. We've been fans of his work for a while now, and I'm excited for you to have a chance to listen in on our conversation with him, which I'm going to switch over to now,

Jake

Jake, welcome to the Lewis and Kyle show. We're really excited to have you on. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you guys for having me on. Absolutely. So in researching for this podcast and just generally being a fan of you before asking you to come on one of the pieces of your brand that I don't fully understand as longevity. So the first question for you is how old do you think you're going to be when you die? It's a funny, a funny way to start off. I think that, I mean, there's a few ways I could approach the question, but I tend to think about everything maybe with some exceptions, but mostly in terms of probabilities. And I think longevity is one of those things that definitely make sense to view through that lens. I think that there's a reasonable probability that we have technologies that come out and I don't know if it's in the next decade or two decades, three decades, et cetera, but guys like you and I are, are fairly young where even if something comes out in the next five decades, call it that meaningfully can rejuvenate people and sort of rewind the biological clock in a sense that could be super impactful on the sort of life expectancy that we could expect, not just life expectancy, but extending actual health span. So not just like picturing an 80 year old person today and extending that out another 40 years, but actually potentially being like age 90, but sort of fit like we're in our forties and fifties. And this is quite a controversial way, I guess, to, to start off the podcast. But it's something that I've had guests on to talk about. And it's something that the more you look into it, it starts to make some sense as to why it could be reasonable, that we could extend our health spans by, you know, 20, 30%. And then the limit is sort of questionable as to whether there even is one from there. And I can go more into sort of how I think about that from like a conceptual point of view, not being like a scientist or a super technical person myself, but the short answer, I guess to your question is that I think of course there's, there's a chance I could die tomorrow, you know, some tragic accident or whatever it might be. So there's some probability of, of sort of a premature, non age related death. And let's call that I dunno, 20% and that's not just like a car crash, but something that's a more traditional disease. That's not like totally associated with aging, unlike Alzheimer's heart disease and cancer, which are directly related with aging and your, your probability of getting those things increases as you get older. So let's call it like 20% and sort of like the accident or rare disease bucket. And then the remaining 80, and this isn't something I've thought about super explicitly, but I just tend to think that there's like a pretty good chance that I could live well beyond 120. And that alone is sort of controversial enough for me to maybe stop there and say,

Kyle Bishop

Well, I don't know. I think, you know, I think 120 is totally believable, like to touch on your point about this being controversial. You know, when I I've been listening to your podcast a lot. So, you know, what you consume sort of goes out into your conversations. And a lot of the people that I talk to about longevity immediately have like harsh reactions, but they'll, they'll quickly accept one 20. So I, I think what you're talking about the limit here is like infinity and that's the crazy part. Like that's what excites me and what people cannot wrap their minds around at all.

Jake

All. Yeah. I mean, think about like even 250, like that's not infinity, that's not a thousand, but that is insane versus like what we expect today, today we expect, you know, eighties, maybe seventies, even nineties, if we're lucky and to be able to live a 200 year life or something like that, just add, I mean, a double our time at the very least and time, you know, I would argue is like the most valuable thing we all have. And so to be able to double that would be, you know, it's, it's just, it's amazing to me how little attention this field gets. And I think part of it is because it was relatively recently, it was sort of established first in worms. And then in mice that we could actually extend, not just like the average health span and lifespan, which has been occurring in humans for the better part of the last century. People don't really think about it, but the average human only lived until, I don't know, like, don't call me on this, but like maybe 40 just given all of the child morbidity and infectious diseases that we didn't really have vaccines or cures for. And we've been able to extend that to like, I don't know what it is, seventies or eighties than it is today. And, but that that's been sort of raising the average, the idea that we could raise the maximum, which like the oldest person in recorded history has lived to, I don't know, one 22 or something like that, high, high, one tens low one twenties. And it's, it's obviously very rare and the idea that we could extend that hasn't really been accepted until late, they, when we first proved it in, in worms and then in mice.

Louis Shulman

So I have a question being a little less informed about this than Kyle is, or a lot less informed. What are the main strategies or like areas of science we're talking about for this indefinite and or double life extension? Is that from like genetics? Is that from drug treatments? Is that from like a more tech computer offload and consciousness route? Like what are you kind of grasping at when you're saying this is in the realm of possibility?

Jake

Yeah. It's, it's funny that I'm on sort of fielding these questions. I'm like the least close to like being an expert on any of these things, but I can give you like a normal person, like who's interested in the space sort of approach. And, and I've obviously been able to talk to and been fortunate to talk to people like Aubrey de grey and some others coming up on the podcast soon. But I think when I think about like the main strategies, it's actually sort of a combination of all the things that you mentioned. I tend not to focus too much on the people I'm talking to for the most part, don't focus too much on the sort of neuro link brain upload type of side of things. Although computers certainly have a tremendous influence in the progress along other pathways in terms of like drug discovery and identifying like what actually is at the root of aging and things like that. And the whole recent approach. I think the approach that I subscribed to, which was sort of laid out loosely or not really loosely pretty specifically by Aubrey de grey, you know, closer to in the, in the early two thousands was basically taking a computer science, like engineering approach to aging and saying, let's not try to stop the occurrence and the phenomenon of aging because it's sort of, it's sort of inevitable, arguably, it's so complex and it's just, it's like a car. He, he makes a really good analogy. You run a car, you can't stop the car from having damage accumulate over time, but we repair cars and then we can get hundreds of thousands of miles out of cars that otherwise might stop functioning at 80. If you don't, you know, refill the oil or change the brakes and whatever else it might be. And obviously human aging is, is a heck of a lot more complex than that. But Aubrey's approach basically says, okay, so there's seven or eight different sort of main types and categories of damage that we see accumulating as a result of the aging process. And these are the sorts of damage that ultimately end up killing us, whether it's sort of dead cells that are accumulating or cells being lost, dangerous cells being added. I don't have them all top of mind right now, sort of mitochondrial dysfunction is one of the other things general like issues with epigenetics, which I can like say the word, but I barely even know what's going on there. But I think that these are the different areas in which damaged sort of accumulates. And the idea is if we can sort of, you know, delete this damage intermittently over time, we can rejuvenate ourselves biologically. And that's how you end up with a 60 year old sort of being able to rewind their biological age to 40. And then by the time they get to 60, again, humans fad 20 more years to develop new technologies. And that's what Aubrey describes as this sort of longevity escape, velocity, the point at which we could basically figure out how to rejuvenate ourselves by a year or more per year. And therefore as co kind of mentioned earlier, potentially be able to live forever. So I don't like, you know, I, I don't think there's actually a lot of utility in like, thinking about that sort of stuff. I just focus on, like, if we can live healthier, longer lives, well beyond 120 or 150 or 200, that's a great start and we'll kind of address the next thing when we get to it.

Kyle Bishop

Yeah. I like that. And I think if anybody listening to this likes the last couple of minutes, this podcast, I'd definitely recommend listening to the Roger bear and the, the episode on Jake's podcasts, both of those, you know, that they're less like technical and more just like from a philosophical standpoint, like if people can live longer, like how is that a bad thing? And like, why do we have negative reactions when we think about this longevity idea, but there are two other pillars to your brand that I want to talk about as well. So all three of them together, it's like cryptocurrency, longevity and city building crypto and longevity I think are pretty easily seen or easily understood. But could you define city building for the audience? Yeah,

Jake

I can. I can at least try. I think it is sort of what it sounds like just building cities, but the way that I think about it maybe takes a few different forms. One is building cities maybe that are a little bit redesigned versus what we think of today. So there's a project going on and I think it's Tempe, Arizona. I'd like to get the founder on the podcast at some point,

Kyle Bishop

But a col-de-sac

Jake

Call this out. Yeah, yeah. I know what you meant. Compounds is on everyone's minds these days, but yeah, it's like in real life, right? Somewhat maybe I dunno. And I haven't gotten too deep into either, but I know part of the premise that they're doing, I think part of the premise of what they're doing is like there's no cars within the town or the city or whatever you want to call it. And so simple things like that where there's maybe no roads and much more room for walking and much more room for nature or everyone, you know, everyone uses bikes or, or walks from place to place. And maybe there's really nicely automated delivery of food. And, and things are just rethought a little bit from the ground up from, from sort of zero to one in terms of what we have available to ourselves today and building a city versus all the cities that were built, you know, decades, if not centuries ago, that we're just sort of piling technology on top of, but sort of starting with a blank slate. And I think remote work and everything that COVID is brought on this trend where, you know, this trend that was already ongoing towards more of a virtual world, that, that sort of took a large step that is going to be difficult to reverse towards that future because of COVID. I think it makes these things more interesting because all of the sudden, you know, for me, for example, like I most likely would have had to, or wanted to live in a, in a major city. And now it's occurred to me that, I mean, I've been doing everything I've been doing for the past year, from basically my family home combined with a few month-long Airbnbs here and there. And it actually doesn't matter at all where I am. And there's something to be said for like physical networks and, you know, that's why you see people go into Miami and Austin. And obviously there's a lot of people still in San Francisco and New York and things like that, but it certainly levels the playing field a little bit, not just nationally, but globally to try to start new new cities or towns or whatever you want to call them around the world. So that's sort of one aspect of it. Another one is, so that's like an infrastructural, like what does the city look like? What does the town look like, et cetera? The other thing that I think is really important is to be able to experiment with different sets of regulations and laws and things like, and so charter cities is sort of the, the go-to definition and an example of how that's sort of coming to fruition today. Previously, like I had pottery Friedman on the podcast, he sort of came up with this concept or at least popularized the concept of seasteading, which Peter teal invested to help get off the ground. And that was basically thinking that we could build, you know, self self-governing communities or civilizations countries, whatever you want to call them on the water, because there's, it's a little bit more of a free for all in terms of who owns different territories in that sense. And so cruise ships would be like a similar idea, but basically just the concept of like experimenting with new types of governance again, because the world has changed quite a bit in the last decade or two let alone the last centuries. And, uh, we're sort of stuck with these systems that were born at least hundreds of years ago in most cases, but there's probably some different laws and things, you know, infrastructures that we can set up legally to encourage more innovation, maybe bring us faster into a future with some of these longevity types of technologies self-driving is something I'd really like to see us sort of push the pedal to the metal on no pun intended. I think that'll save a lot of lives every year and young lives as well. So these are things that I think are just like really important and I'm just doing my best to sort of, you know, grow the audience for my microphone and bring really interesting people on to help get the message out.

Kyle Bishop

Yeah. I liked the way that you moved through that question, because when I got into this sort of area, I was really interested at first and like, you know, the cover like manufacturing homes and how efficiently you could do that and the, and the infrastructure aspect to it. And then increasingly I got more interested in, in the laws that you're talking about and how we could change the way that people are governed to unlock human potential. And that's when I got into Patrick and, and like his ideas and, you know, obviously he's thought a lot about the subject and you're right. Like the systems that are in place to govern us were put in place when people communicated via letters. It's like those people couldn't imagine the world that we live in today and being governed by systems created back then just, you know, there are features to it, but there's a whole lot of bugs as well. And, and being able to consider it that way and be able to change things I think would unlock huge human potential, which is what, you know, we're all about. But the touch on that last point about, uh, self-driving cars. So one thing I've, I identified as being obsolete in the future and the cities that currently exist is parking garages. Like I think, you know, what are we going to need parking garages for in the future? So off the top of your head, what do you think would potentially be a good reuse of parking garages? And then also what things like this, have you thought of?

Jake

Yeah. So the second part of the question, I'll have to think about it a little bit. The first part I'm lucky to have already thought about before basically ghost kitchens. So people, you know, who can sort of self-start restaurants, you know, they could be large corporations, but they could also be like small business owners could sort of, you know, a real estate developer could fit a parking garage into a structure that contains a number of kitchens. I think, you know, I'm not like a, an architect or anything like that, but it seems fairly doable. And, and by the way, I totally agree that parking garages are going to be useless after, you know, some matter of time. And so turning them into, I mean, I mean, on the one hand ghost kitchens, on the other hand, I actually haven't thought about it super recently. That was like a few years ago more recently I could see them sort of becoming fulfillment centers, not only for Amazon, but for all the people selling on Shopify and things like that. And having a founder on a, in a week or two, who's doing something similar with like two hour, two hour shipping on a number of like D to C brands. So basically anything to do with this, a world in you can order something online, whether it's mobile or desktop or whatever, and then expect it to be at your door in a matter of minutes or hours. Food is the first thing that comes to mind with like DoorDash and Postmates and whatnot, but also just regular commercial goods and things like that. I think parking garages could, could very well be turned into those sorts of, you know, to fulfill those functions.

Louis Shulman

I'm still going to put you back on the hook for that second part of the question, because I am curious if anything popped in your mind real quick, as far as other kind of implications of futurism on futurism being a very generic term on cities that might cause that type of unseen second order consequences, like parking garages.

Jake

Yeah. So let me just clarify a little bit, like what, what sort of a perspective you're looking for, basically just like, what are some infrastructural changes that, you know, certain things within cities today could be rendered somewhat useless and what could we sort of have in their places that sort of what you're, what you're getting at. Yes. Right. So think for a second, I think one, one trend that I don't know if it's probable, maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but, and this isn't like so specific as it is overarching, but I think that that cities, towns, communities at large should be transforming into more outdoor, more outdoor accommodating sort of structures. And so what do I mean by that? I wrote a post and this is sort of why it comes to mind. I wrote this like 10 months ago, but just reshared it the other day. And it was a, from the beginning of COVID, I called it going outside again. And it was basically about how like humans, you know, we, we grew up or not regress. We, we evolved, uh, from, from, you know, thousands of years ago, we sort of lived in caves and, and, you know, made very primal structures and things like that. But we spent the vast majority of our time outside and over time, this has shifted to now we spend like almost every waking hour and sleeping hour inside. And it's actually, I personally, I really enjoy being outside. I think it's somewhat healthy from like a evolutionary perspective and, and that could be a stretch, but like, I think there's something to be said for certain things that are somewhat natural to our species being somewhat good to keep as a part of sort of what we do. And there's certainly so many things like we weren't evolved to spend, you know, a dozen hours on our phone or laptop every day, but yet here we are. So balancing that with like being outside, I think is, is probably a net healthy. And I think COVID, I mean, who knows how things are really gonna settle after this, there's going to be some sort of new normal, and then we'll continue to develop from there. Obviously we're still kind of in flux and in like the thick of it. But I think what I'd like to see is like restaurants take like a lot more of an outdoor focus and you're seeing this already, but more than that, like offices and schools and gyms to accommodate a lot more outdoor activities, because on the, on the one hand, in the near term with COVID, it's been proven, it's, it's so much safer. And on the other hand, it's just like better. And in my opinion, in a lot of ways, and of course there's like rainy days and cold days and things like that that you need to figure out, or maybe you just go inside for those times, but I don't see any reason. I couldn't work outside with a laptop, you know? And like, even if I need a phone, like figuring out the extension cords, like it doesn't seem prohibitive that we could be able to work outside for at least, you know, 30% of the time that we spend inside today. So I think maybe converting like totally indoor cities and buildings into more, you know, transformable like partly outdoor areas could be, could be interesting. I don't know exactly what it'll look like, but I'm sort of hopeful that that could happen.

Louis Shulman

Uh, share your hopefulness there. We've luckily been getting some better weather here lately and I've really been enjoying spending time outside. And I agree with you. I'm definitely also not in a position to make a very scientific or research backed argument here, but I just feel like our hormones are so in tune with like the natural light and like the cycle of the day that being outside just makes you more kind of, kind of balanced. One thing that I think has strong Kyle to your work and then myself as well, once Kyle brought it to my attention is this optimism you have about the future of city is about the future of human health, about the future of all these different topics. And you sent us this one other podcast you were on where you kind of at the end, talks about media optimism. I, the way you kind of phrase that was a term I've never really heard before, because just the media is never optimistic. So what are some of your thoughts on media optimism and kind of a meta question? What is your optimism about the future of media optimism? Or are you optimistic about the future of media?

Jake

Yeah. Interesting question. I think, I think, I mean, this has been something that I've been thinking about for a long time. Not at all, really, even in relation to technology. I remember thinking years ago that I would like in another life love to publish a newspaper called something like positively news, I think was the time. What was the name at the time? Something like that, where, you know, you turn on the TV and you look at the news and it's like, where are the natural disasters hitting, who's dying? What shootings are happening? Who's suffering all bad news for the most part. And then it's actually funny. I was watching like, I rarely watch like the actual news, but I was with my family and, and my, I think my dad had it on or something. And I was, and we don't regenerate as a family. Like no one really watches the news, but it was on there politics going on or whatever. And it was like, you know, the normal negative programming. And at the end, they're like they do like a five, you know, like a 32nd special on like some guy who, or some kid who, you know, passed his bar exam. And it like seems so random. I was like, what, like, first of all, who cares? I mean, good for the kid, but like, this is such micro good news to sort of end the program on when you've been talking about how terrible everything is. And it's just like somewhat silly. And maybe that's like a, an unfairly critical perspective because I actually just don't watch the news. Not much to know, but it definitely seems to me. And, you know, to your point that just media at large is it's extremely negative generally because the fact of the matter is they need to make money. I don't really blame individuals. I think that might be a little bit different than, than, you know, some people might blame certain people who, who are doing the news or whatever, and maybe there is some blame to go around, but I think fundamentally the incentive structure is wrong. These are, you know, profit based organizations that actually have like a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to make money as best they can and in order to do so, they need to optimize their advertising dollars. And in order to do that, they need to optimize their engagement. And in order to do that, they basically need to make people either agree with them or angry about something. And you basically get people to agree with you by, you know, just putting around and, you know, promoting the same old sort of conformist consensus, politically, correct, whatever it is. And then you basically make people angry by talking about, you know, Trump or whatever else it is. That's sort of like we we've had like a lot of this and maybe we can move on to like the next thing or, or also, you know, canceling people is another big one. Obviously you grab up a lot of anger that way and you get clicks. And I see it working, you know, it works on me. I'm human too. It's like some bogus article that's just like totally stupid, but I click it. I used to go on a, for, for way too long, longer than I care to admit I had Yahoo, uh, sort of the homepage on my internet browser. And they have like all this nonsense on the front page. And it's like, some of it's somewhat innocent, but it's just like stuff that I read it. I'm like, all right. I just wasted how much of my time. And so I guess more recently I started realizing that not only is there this gen general negative sentiment, but there's especially a negative sentiment targeted at tech and I'm maybe not the best person to explain why that is, but people who have been in tech for decades and, you know, founders and VCs and, and things like that, tech execs, they, I think from what I've heard from them, they feel that they've gotten sort of this unfair and sort of unreasonable that they've had this unreasonable relationship with, with the media where it's always like a game of. Gotcha. And so I think the hope is that now there's sort of enough technology between Twitter and podcasts and sub stack and all of these different resources where companies can sort of, you know, run their own media arm and sort of run their own press campaigns. And, and they actually don't need to go to the New York times or, you know, MSNBC Stan BC, or whatever it is to sort of get their message out. And so I think that sort of sets the playing field for a more ProTech narrative. And now it's just a matter of sort of building it. And I'm trying to sort of do my small part too, to share this positive vision of a future based on sort of the types of things I talk about on the podcast and just get like a more positive message out as a whole. It's not all about technology in the future for my podcast. At least it's also about like what sort of good habits can we create and, and sort of what are the things we can do that are healthy and good for ourselves and good for the world. So trying to, you know, I'm a positive person and I believe in the power of a positive mindset. And so it's sort of just what I'm trying to share with the world.

Kyle Bishop

Yeah. I love that. I think there's like two sides of it really it's like the media optimism or the media pessimism in terms of, you know, like movies being made about the future and how they're all the <inaudible>. And then also like just the news cycle in general and how it is set up to, like you said, like first make us angry. And then second make us agree with them. And I would love one day to have different incentives built into these journalism journalists so that we don't have to have that framework for these different large media outlets and giving us information. But switching gears here, one question that I wrote down a long time ago for you is like, you know, I know you're familiar with Ray Kurzweil and he's a crazy futurist who is very optimistic about the future and it's really refreshing to read his stuff. But one thing that I was shocked by is that like he was looking at artificial intelligence in the 1960s and like was in York when the bill or the, the computers were the size of buildings. And like no one was thinking about it. And, you know, even today, 50 years later, seven years later, six years later, we haven't fully seen the implications of AI at all be, be implemented into our society. So like, I guess my question is what industries do you think are really nascent right now really new that will have this outsized impact on humans, you know, in a hundred years or 70 years, like Ray Kurzweil was looking at artificial intelligence all the way back then.

Jake

Yeah. I mean, Kurzweil definitely had like more, you know, more, more, uh, justification to be making his predictions than I might have today, but doing my best. Yeah. Doing my best to sort of speculate on these things. I mean, the sort of better than any answer I can provide the answer is sort of like, look at the people on my podcast, look at the things they're building. Those are the things that I tend to believe in. And that's sort of why I'm trying to do my small part too. Like I think about a large part of what I'm doing is to kind of figure out how the world works and what the future holds and to help communicate that understanding to people both through the blog and Twitter and the podcast first and foremost. So, you know, all of the trends on there I guess, would, would fit my answer here, but just to sort of give a brief version, I think the things we mentioned, longevity, people, like you said, that they might sort of accept the premise that we could easily live have until 120 or 125 or whatever, which is, you know, an achievement ended up self, but they, they might hesitate to think about it much longer than that with any probability of occurring. And maybe it's only 10% that we live beyond 200, but that's like a reasonable probability. And if it's 30, then that's like a real probability and I'm probably worth somewhat preparing for or planning for, you know, I'm all for like being in the moment and things like that. But it's useful to, you know, humans generally, like we think about the future and we plan for the future. That's just like a part of how the world works. Now. I wrote something about this the other day. Like again, going back to like early evolution, all we could really do was go out and get our food for the day. We didn't have, it means to even store it, but now we can plan, you know, at least theoretically we could, we have the luxury of being able to plan ahead quite a bit. And so I should be thinking about, I think as individuals, I certainly think about like the possibility that I could have a much longer life and I'm not necessarily expecting it as like a a hundred percent thing, but it's occurred to me as a possibility. And maybe because of that, I'm more comfortable taking sort of like a long-term mindset on things. I'm more comfortable doing things like I'm doing now quitting, you know, regular, you know, well-paying job and going, and sort of just following my passion for a year or two or whatever, you know, hopefully it turns into a sort of imperpetuity thing where I'm able to build financial freedom to let myself do what I want forever. But these are sort of jumps that people might not make if they think more traditionally as like, okay, I'm going to get to 60 and I'm going to retire, then I'm going to have 20 years to do whatever people do in retirement, which seems to me mostly just like be bored. And then, and then, you know, I'm going to die. I think there's, there's a, uh, a valid and reasonable argument for, for, or at least considering that we could live longer. And I don't think a lot of people, yeah, we're actually actively thinking about that. Another one is the city building, which we talked about and just the concept that we could have sort of small countries that emerge and actually do quite well because it doesn't actually matter what your physical army is so much anymore. I mean, especially if you, like, if you have nukes, that's sort of like the ultimate, you know, game Ander, like no one should really mess with you if you have like nukes and I don't really know too much about that stuff or like get into that stuff too much. I'm just like hoping that nothing like that really occurs. And yeah, I think that's a pretty consensus view. That's actually not that controversial, but the bottom line is like a physical army of like a million people. It doesn't really matter that much anymore. At least not from my perspective. And so it's feasible that you could have a very small piece of land with a very small population that is actually really smart and has a lot of money and can make, you know, market advances and a lot of these technologies that then become lucrative and sort of self-fund themselves as a country. And that sort of like what the ideal new country might be able to look like, because I think people, maybe aren't thinking so much about that. And then lastly, crypto, which is more widely known of course, but I think still like by the, the general public it's, it's probably pretty heavily underrated. And I don't know for sure. I still think that Bitcoin is not 100% inevitable. I think it's, it's becoming more so by the day, every day, every day that it survives, it's more likely inevitable. And, you know, I, I personally hope that it is and that it sort of achieves its destiny, but if it does and all this infrastructure that's being built around it and around a theory, um, which, you know, I take a similar perspective on if all of these things come to fruition. It seems to me that we're in like, you know, I dunno somewhere between like 1995 and 2005, in terms of the internet, which itself I would argue has only just begun to sort of show its promise and potential. And so crypto could, could change a lot of things from, from money to, you know, just everything that's maybe like a little bit of a, a vague thing, but I just think crypto could be tremendously impactful. And it's actually really hard to say how it could be so impactful because it would be like trying to predict the internet in 1995. But I think it's the impact in terms of its sheer size could be pretty tremendous.

Louis Shulman

That is a pretty Epic list of trends. And for the people who enjoyed you walking through those definitely check out Jake's writing at blog of Jakey, goes in detail on a lot of those. I want to now ask just some kind of rapid fire questions, just some smaller questions I wanted to get through. And Kyle might jump in back and forth for a couple. So Kyle sent me a tweet today of Tim Ferris's dream guests. And he said, even our dream guests have dream guests, which was kind of funny. So you're an anonymous creator. I wanted to ask you who your favorite anonymous creators are.

Jake

Yeah. So for the rapid fire, I'll try not to rant too much anymore, but I liked that three by Tim Ferriss. And I liked what you said, Kyle. I think that my dream guests, I mean, Peter teal would be one Elon Musk, Jack Dorsey. And I'd also like to, you know, I've at first I was heading towards a, here I go on my rant again, but I had first, I was sort of by accident, developing a bit of Venetia and crept down. I don't want to get pigeonholed into there. So then I started really doubling down on the aging stuff, which was actually more important to me in the first place. And even this month has probably been my best month in terms of getting guests related to that topic. And the city building has, has gone really well as well. But even those three topics, as well as the others, like, you know, I had the CEO of aura ring and the guys who are doing a levels, which is another sort of like health thing, like health and wellness, there's other topics throughout it like a DJ. And that all just goes to say, I want to have like a very general, you know, I want to have like a, more of like a Rogan style thing, but with my own interests, not Annonay and comedy and, and whatever else Rogan does, but sort of technology and maybe, you know, athletes or politicians or whatever it is. I just, just, I, anyone who's an interesting, I'd love to have on it. And so in that light, you know, I don't know, like Jim Carey would be pretty cool to have on these aren't things I've thought about super explicitly Elon Musk, but, but yeah, I have, you know, really, I have a lot of moonshots, I guess, on my list is the short answer.

Louis Shulman

I think that's a great answer. And maybe, you know, if Jim Carrey lives to be 200, we'd have a lot more comedy movies, but question as well. So what anonymous creators specifically, do you follow? So you're, you know, blog of Jake, that's your entire brand, there's no identity associated with that. Do you have any other creators that write under a pseudonym or just have a obscured brands like yourself? That you're a big fan of

Jake

Really? I mean, the examples that I cite are like, I, cause I think there's a spectrum of like pseudonymity and so on the one end of the extreme, you have, you have Satoshi who, who created a trillion dollar asset and no one knows who he is or who they are or whatever. And so for him, that's like the extreme, like, you know, if, if he could be known, I'm sure he would be by now. So he did a, an excellent job of being firmly synonymous. Whereas someone like lady Gaga, I might've talked about this previously, but like someone like lady Gaga, obviously everyone knows who lady Gaga is. Everyone knows what she looks like, but no one really knows what her name is. I mean, certainly like a lot of people know what her name is, it's on Wikipedia, but I personally don't know what her name is. I don't know if you guys know what her real name is. And so there's ways to sort of have this. What I think is somewhat underrated anonymity by just not putting your name or your face and people's, you know, on your, basically on your social media profile. And so that's sort of the direction that I've had. I'm not like super hard synonymous, but if you don't spend a ton of time trying to figure out who I am, you probably won't.

Kyle Bishop

Yeah. I like a lot of what you said there. I'm going to jump back to, to crypto. I think, you know, the way I think about it is that it's going to disrupt debt and equity markets and like debt and equity markets are far more important than people realize in terms of their everyday lives. Like I was writing a paper a few days ago about, about slavery in the 1890s and that area of time. And like the only thing that like could stop the, the people from their moral pursuit of the destruction of slavery was the, this like large depression that happened in 1873. And it's just insane how powerful, you know, these, these markets are that people don't fully understand. And I think that from that, and from crypto, having a large impact on these markets, that it itself will, will have a much larger impact on people's regular lives than, than anyone really currently realizes. And then the other thing was about, like you saying that you didn't want to get pigeonholed into crypto and how you were kind of doing that. I think that that is an interesting idea because, you know, we had a podcast a little while ago with Danny Miranda and he said that each person that he brings on is like an ingredient in this like big cake that he's building. And I think that you've done a really good job with your different ingredients and selecting them. And that's just like me applauding you. And I think that it's sort of like that escape philosophy that you were talking about with longevity is the same thing for podcasting and the, the quality of guests that you can get increases with every additional, really good ingredient that you have. And you've just done a really good job of, of building that. But in the beginning, like was part of Jake going to be about crypto longevity and city building, or has that developed over time?

Jake

We're first of all, I appreciate the kind words on the guest list and everything like that. And I think it's something where, you know, if I just show that to like a random person on the street and by that, I mean my guest list they'll be like, okay, and they won't recognize any names. That'd be like, congrats on your podcast. But if certain people such as you and the people who, who found me and followed me thus far, when they discovered the list, it's like a mine of gold. And basically it's more online of gold. The more sort of calm, the more overlap you have in like your interests, as you know, in comparison with me. And I think while on the one hand that might be a niche at the, on the other hand, there's, there's plenty of people in that niche. And it's, it's interesting because I think like when I first set out to answer your question directly, like, yes, these were the three buckets that sort of seemed first and foremost, most obvious to me, things that I thought were underrated, that existing podcasts didn't focus on. And there's this thing that I think it was from Scott Adams, who basically talks about, I think about Scott Adams and evolve things that they've each said sort of in tandem. And then maybe Peter TL comes in as well. And I'll explain how all of these connects. So basically the Scott Adams thing was rather than, so he's like for people who don't know, he's like a, well-known cartoonist slash like business person. He makes like business cartoons and then he's like a media personality or whatever. And he talks about how, like, if you want to be unique and it's not like fresh in mind, but I think it's something along the lines of like, if you want to be unique, don't try to be like the best in, you know, the best in one particular thing, but try to be 90th percentile or whatever it is in two or three things. And then you'll be 99.9, 9% dial in the combination of those things. And so by combining, you know, there's a lot of crypto podcasts, there's probably no aging podcasts or at least none that I'm aware of with like this specific focus. And then there's a handful at most of city building podcasts that are at least like notable or whatever. And that's, so by combining the three, I figured that as like a baseline would enable me to sort of dominate a niche that I think is a really valuable, I mean, I view, like we talked about them earlier, these are all, these are not like, I'm not talking about like Chinese restaurants here. I'm talking about like very big technological that could have massive magnitude impacts on the future. And I'm just in a fortunate position to have maybe recognize those things, starting with longevity for me. And then, and that was a few years ago and then moving on to crypto and most recently the city building, and then there's other things like nuclear energy, I think is really interesting and probably at least a part of the solution to the climate crisis. And there's other things like, uh, you know, space is obviously top of the news right now, and I'm not like the best qualified person to talk about it, but it's, it's definitely interesting. So yeah, those, those were factors from the early days. And the other things I think about that I mentioned earlier is like Nevada says, well, first Peter TLS says, you know, competition is for losers. Basically. You don't want to compete. You want to have a monopoly competing in the legal fields for him going to law school. And things was, was going to be a dead end path to pursue. And similarly for me, it was banking. And then Nevada says, you know, as a, maybe as a means to escape competition, you know, escape competition through authenticity is that sort of what I'm doing is like, I'm just following all of my genuine interests. And as a result, it should be a very unique brand that maybe people have 95% overlap, or maybe they have 35%, but they sorta liked the way that I run a podcast and all those people hopefully will, will continue to come and enjoy the content.

Louis Shulman

I liked that contextualization a lot, one way. I've kind of thought about explaining it or like the benefit and what you can do of having like diverse interests, but kind of always having a common theme within them. So like David Pearl's podcast, for example, he doesn't really have a niche except every person on there is a writer. So he talks mostly about whatever their thing is, but always does work in a few questions about writing. So I know listening to that, like, that's the predictable aspect I'm going to learn from it. And I think with your show, you can accomplish something similar, right? Like you have a diverse range of interests, but there are a couple of common threads of futurism and like optimal human performance and like advancing the human race. And there's kind of going to be that angle on just about any variety of topics. Another topic you bring up, and this is another rapid fire question here is about self experimentation. That's kind of a circle on the internet. I have a lot of fun with because I like tweaking and self experimenting. So I have a two-part question. What is the least successful self experiment you've run and most successful self experiment you've run. This is kind of like health, fitness, diet sleep, any of that?

Jake

Yeah. So it's, it's funny. I asked a lot of two-part questions in my podcast and I'm just starting to appreciate that. Like, they're kind of tough, but I like the questions you guys are asking and I'll do my best to respond to this one. The best self will, I'll start with the worst. I think if you're giving bad news and good news, it's always good to start with the bad news and this isn't quite that, but maybe similar, the worst experiment I've had. Well, so one thing that I used to think, and this is pretty common is especially in today's pages of like work hard, play hard. I used to think in college about how, if I slept six hours a night, you know, the common wisdom is sleep eight hours a night. And I used to think that if I slept six hours, I would have, you know, X many more hours in my life. And I think to some extent, you know, that could hold merit. But so basically I was, I was just like sleeping less, more recently. I've, I'm more wired towards that too. I feel, I feel fine when I, when I don't sleep that much and not like, like less than five hours consistently or less than six hours, even consistently, I feel pretty bad, but six, six and a half, even five and a half sometimes, like, I'm fine. But I think there is definitely something to be said, not just on a day to day basis for how you, you can feel, but in the long run, there could be merit to sleeping much more. I have an aura ring now and I, I interviewed the CEO there Harpreet and I think sleeping is something it's like hard to, it's really hard, at least for me to prioritize. But I think experimenting with any degree of like serious sleep deprivation is probably not a good idea. And I didn't really like hardcore try that, but just the belief that I had that probably wasn't good and I'm still sort of working to, to change and to prioritize sleep. Cause I do feel really good when I got a lot of sleep, but it's just hard for me. I said this to, I'm not a tweeted even, but like I'm genuinely, like I wake up like on my, and sometimes like, I don't like pop out of bed right away. But even if I don't, I'm like excited about something. Like I kind of like want the day to start. And this is part of the fortune of just like not being in, you know, a nine to five job that I don't particularly like. And so I'm just like excited to like, do whatever I want to do. And then at night I'm sort of like, you know, not ready to call it a day yet. And that's not to say that like every day is a breeze, but, but that's like sort of the truth and not sort of th th that is the truth. And it's sort of like, it's just explaining maybe the challenge of like sleeping a lot more, a good experiment that I've done. That stock is intermittent fasting. I've been fasting for 16 plus hours a day, most weekdays for the better part of the last two years, something like that. It's sort of increasing frequency, maybe over the last three years. And now I do it almost every weekday for, and I've been doing it for like the last year, pretty much every weekday. I like giving myself the weekend to sort of do whatever I want and I do enjoy breakfast. So I like to have it on the weekends and things, but during the week I just sort of stop eating after dinner or try to at least, and not have too much like late night food. And then I don't really eat until the next afternoon. And recently I've been stretching that more so to like one eating period a day. And I might start with like a snack at like three or four and then sort of finish up dinner at seven or eight. And that's sort of my, my eating window. And I think there's been an intermittent fasting or caloric restriction more specifically has been shown as like one of the only things that you can do today to increase longevity. And I, you know, it might not work for everybody or whatever, but that's sort of where like the science points. And for me, I actually, I don't like, like spending a ton of time, like preparing three meals or whatever. So it just makes sense for a lot of reasons. Like if I launch, I'm unlikely to get a lot done between like lunch and dinner. So I kinda like to just like fast for the morning and the better part of the day, and then sort of close it out with dinner. Like someone like close out a day with a glass of whiskey or whatever, not to say that it's not good to close out the day with a glass of whiskey sometimes. Yeah.

Kyle Bishop

Yeah. Every once in a while, we're actually, we're interviewing a guy named Dr. <Inaudible>, uh, later today. And he, I'm not sure if it's what it used to be, but at one point he was doing one meal every 48 hours and he's a carnivore. So it's like, it's nuts. I can't wait to ask him about that. And then yeah, two-part questions. It's definitely more difficult on the, on the receiving end. So this one will be, well, I want to ask this one to partner, but I'll just go for it. Just go with, he's done a great job with them. So, so I say, go for it. It's like VC of Jake has to be an eventuality, I think. And, and also, what is your ultimate vision for blog? Pot of J

Jake

Yeah. So a fund of Jake as I'd probably call it is probably a upcoming I can't give fund. Yeah. I can't give you a timeline because I, I'm not really executing on it yet, but it's definitely a big part of my thinking. I like investing generally, but, but especially if I could invest in some of these longevity startups or crypto companies and, and things like, I, you know, any, any company that I find interesting, I have a wide variety of interests, obviously. So it definitely a part of the roadmap. I'm not super goal oriented, you know, it might not seem that way or whatever, but I'm more so I think about process and, you know, take things one day at a time with sort of some loose ideas for things I might want to do in the future. And so I don't have super specific goals right now. I'm keeping going with the podcast. I actually don't have like that big of an audience for what I think like the quality of the content that I'm producing is. And, uh, I think it's just going to sort of take time to come to fruition. I'm not really like a big, uh, marketing guy and certainly not like a quick bit type of person. So it might take a little longer. I also think not sharing my face and name probably delays the speed a little bit, just because people like to see faces and names. And so, I dunno, it's all going to take some time. So keeping going with the podcast to sort of first and foremost, continuing to write and maybe, you know, trending towards writing a little bit more. I started writing for several months, every weekday, I was publishing something and then took some, you know, re shifted my priorities a little bit towards the podcast. Cause I think it's, you know, both there are really enjoyable for me and I just like to sort of switch up chapters and do different things. And right now I'm more focused on the podcast, but I want to do some more writing again, obviously tweeting. And then there's a number of things like literally, I mean, a dozen things I could talk about things I want to be like somewhat careful not to like talk about all these things, then not do them or talk about them before I, I go ahead and do them. But I'll just say that people, if they, if they sort of follow me on Twitter is probably the best place right now. There should be a lot coming in the future in terms of different things that I'm hoping to do

Louis Shulman

Well, that ties into this next question I have, which is a one parter, but it's going to kill two birds with one stone. So the question is, what episode of your podcast have you learned the most from? And then that the call to action is going to be go listen to that episode. So,

Jake

Yeah, I've learned a lot from, from a lot of these episodes, to be honest, I learn more before the episode and doing my preparation, not to say I don't learn a ton from the episodes themselves. Cause I'm obviously asking questions that I want to ask and getting some pretty interesting nuanced answers, but I learned so much in preparation about these people and their perspectives, but the answer to the question, you know, and includes both like what I learned in the episode, as well as before, and the people would be Keith or boy, I learned a lot about in terms of his sort of operating and investing and management sort of executive principles, as well as just ways to think about life like valuing time. And you are who you surround yourself with. I read a good book. The score takes care of itself, which he recommended in preparation for that podcast, which was really, you know, I learned a lot from that as well. I learned a lot from, from biology. I'm sort of naming like the, the ones that I, I talk about most often because they were, they were big name guests and they're sort of the, the guests that I was, you know, had at the very top of my list before I started the podcast. So they kind of come fresh tonight. And so, but, but that is, you know, I did learn a ton from, from these people. So Keith biology, metallic, for sure. And then I've been doing some aging podcasts recently that have really helped me, you know, without them, I wouldn't have probably been able to give as, as confident responses earlier on in our conversation. And so those would include Jack Harley. Who's, who's very underrated at this point, he's he doesn't really have social media wrote an awesome article on state-of-the-art of aging. First episode with Aubrey de gray was learned a ton about aging, obviously. And he's, he's like the guy and give him a ton of credit for, for starting the wheel on all of this. And then I have a bunch more aging podcasts coming up, or I've learned a ton as well, but, but really, I mean like, like I said, it's, it's, I feel like giving out any answer. I'm almost insulting the rest of these people. I've learned so much from so many people. It's been a tremendous experience for me as I'm sure you guys can kind of relate to.

Kyle Bishop

I definitely can relate, Oh wait, I'm sorry. I thought I was muted. Definitely can relate to that. And I've learned a lot in listening to your podcast. I would say that if anybody needs to go to listen to one, it's the biology episode that that episode blew my mind. I mean, he spoke for literally 20 minutes straight and like narratives were just flowing out of him and everything connected, everything made sense. And it's funny, I think that yours and his interests align really, really closely. So I think it made for a really, really great episode, but we really appreciate you coming on here and sharing with us and we're excited to watch you as you grow. And, you know, I wouldn't get down on yourself for having those low downloads or whatever. It's like, you know, this is a long-term game. Like you were saying before. Like if you live to be 120 and you can keep doing this until you're 80, like where would you be then? You know, and you got to think about like that, but thank you very much for coming on and sharing some time with us today,

Jake

A hundred percent. I totally agree with the long-term mindset and applaud you guys for, for what you're doing as well. And thanks so much for, for having me on, it's been a ton of fun today and, and just generally got into, to flip on the other side of the mic and be a guest. I have so much appreciation obviously for what you guys are doing, being usually on that side of the mic myself. So it's, I know it's harder than people make it look, and I love being the guest cause I actually don't really have to do anything. I just come in and answer some questions and being the, you know, having people on your show I think is a lot more work. And I thank you guys for doing everything you did to prep for this one. And, and hopefully it was an interesting episode. Fantastic taste check. Thank you.

Kyle Bishop

And that wraps up our conversation with Jake. I thought it was really cool. And we're back. That was actually, you know, the first time that Lewis and I did audio an audio only podcast and it was sort of an interesting change up. It's like a different medium when you can't see each other. It's like, we can see ourselves right now. And that changes what we say and what we're doing. So I thought it was a super interesting experiment for us to run, but a couple of takeaways for me from that conversation, you know, we talked about a lot and there's a lot of the things that I'm interested in. And I was really glad that we were able to give Jake a opportunity to be on the other side of the mic, where we're asking him about the topics that he is asking his guests about. So it was cool to get his different opinions. And I really appreciated his like humility. And he's like, you know, I'm not the expert. You should go listen to my podcast. Cause that's where I interviewed experts on these subjects. But here are my opinions, which was really cool. It was really cool. But one of the things that I took away from it was just the idea of the longevity escape, velocity and how, you know, I've heard the idea before, but when brought up every time, it just blows my mind. Like at some point in the future, we're probably going to get to a point where we can add an additional year in less than a year of time. And once we break that barrier, like what happens after that? You know, it's, the implications are wide ranging and, and sort of scary to think about. But I think that it's like the cutting edge of, of science and it's super cool to listen to his podcast and hear people talk about it in that scientific deep way. And then the second thing is like the power of getting outside and sort of how, like, you know, the idea of the longevity escape velocity is just an idea. It's like, he's not saying the science behind it and in the same way, like getting outside, you know, there are a lot of things. It that are good for you, but it's just sort of unexplainable and a theorial how being outside can, can change your mood and your attitude and your energy for the rest of the day. And I totally agree with that. And since this podcast has been actively trying to get outside and we've had some really beautiful days here in Tuscaloosa, so it's been great to take, take advantage of those, but that's, that's all, I've got

Louis Shulman

Three takeaways. In addition to what you just shared. One is the butterfly effect of media optimism. So this is a different spin on the idea that recent listeners will recognize as the butterfly effect of content creation that we've mentioned in this in some other recent episodes, but Jake describes how he uses his microphone to enhance ideas. He cares about, we all recognize in society, how there's a strong bias in the media towards telling stories, talking about what's wrong with the world, but Jake and ourselves, right? Do our best to share stories about people that are doing awesome things, using their energies and their time to find ways to improve, not just their lives, but the lives of their customers or their lives of their families or whatever else we had a phone ring or if that's okay. Uh, second takeaway is the importance of optimizing around curiosity and the idea of discovering your niche over time. This is kind of an idea that came up in our episode with Dickie Bush, as well as her episode with Nicole. Those both were episodes about writing and we didn't really talk to Jake about writing, but we talked to them about the ideas that have become more and less prominent based on how much time he spent writing. So he's been spending over the last year, just writing almost every day and podcasting a few times a week. And the idea he set out to write about are not necessarily what his strongest interests are in now. So it's kind of good to set your expectations that in the process of doing 59 podcasts in our case, right, you start to realize what it is you're interested in. Cause it's almost impossible to know upfront. Then the third one that really reinforces that above point is the idea of just Jake has such a long-term mindset is in no hurry to no realize specific capital financial benefits immediately from all of his work that he's doing. He loves what he's doing. It seems like he said, you know, not every day is a walk in the park, but he wraps up the Workday ready for the next one to start, which I think is a good thing. Especially if you're planning on being in it for the long haul. And this is also something that came up with his conversation with pump, which is an episode of his show I'd really recommend listening to, but when you have the attitude of, you know, fuck it, I'm doing this for 10 years for like, this is like, you can just help. It helps you moderate your expectations about setbacks, your expectations about progress. And all you gotta do is just continue to show up. And I think Jake has a really good example of embodying that attitude in a positive way. So that was all I have to say for this conversation. I would highly encourage you to listen to another episode of our show. If you enjoy the content and this episode, we have a lot of great episodes. Our last one, very, very different from this one, but also great, in my opinion, that's about health and fitness with Dr. John <inaudible> who's. The author of weightlifting is a waste of time and the inventor of the <inaudible> system, which Kyle and I have been really enjoying using since I bought after that podcast, before that we interviewed Scott Young, who's the of ultra learning, which is one of my favorite books about self-education. And then before that we interviewed Nicholas Cole about the art and business of online writing, which I mentioned just a bit ago, those episodes are awesome, but also just scroll through the feed and see what else catches your eye. If you appreciated this episode, say, Hey, on Twitter, let us know what you thought and what the most interesting ideas were. And we'd be happy to continue the conversation with you there. If you want to show appreciation, I make sure to leave a rating or review on iTunes, or if you're on YouTube, like, and subscribe, thanks so much for listening and we'll see you in a week with the next episode.

Kyle Bishop

Bye bye.

Kyle Bishop
Co-Host of The Louis and Kyle Show

Kyle is studying finance and accounting at the University of Alabama. He enjoys all things real estate, reading, learning,